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Paraaronoid
10-26-2009, 11:12 AM
Went out deer hunting with a friend from work who was using my Savage muzzleloader. Had a doe lined up in the sights, pulled the trigger, and 'click'. Simply opened bolt and re-closed it, fired, ended up harvesting the deer in the end, so all ended well.

Has anyone ever had this happen to them? I've had it also happen to me occasionally on the bench, never to me personally in the field yet, but it makes a person leary of its reliability.

Pretty sure it is an issue with the primer/firing pin, etc. If a 'mis-fire' was to occur, does it mean that the primer is no good at all? He was able to simply open the bolt, re-close, and then fire just fine. Could this be an issue of the primer not seating properly? I am using the Federal 209A primers. That is all I've ever used, is this a good/bad primer to use?

Anyone experience the same problems?

bigbuckcanuck
10-26-2009, 11:21 AM
Had the same problem this weekend with my friends gun, have you removed the accutrigger? We found it to be the biggest piece of crap and removed it. After your friend fired did the primer look deformed at all or was it stuck, over expanded etc. or did it look like normal?

Paraaronoid
10-26-2009, 11:28 AM
Had the same problem this weekend with my friends gun, have you removed the accutrigger? We found it to be the biggest piece of crap and removed it. After your friend fired did the primer look deformed at all or was it stuck, over expanded etc. or did it look like normal?

Accutrigger, never thought about that for a second, good catch...

Unfortunately, didn't check for deformed primer. Doe ran for a few yards out of our line of sight, so before retrieving he reloaded to be sure. Primer got tossed without viewing as a result.

Have examined them before as this has happened on the bench and nothing looked peculiar. Never had a primer stick before. I have heard of that being a common problem, but I have never experienced that one before.

bigbuckcanuck
10-26-2009, 01:38 PM
We all took our accutriggers out because of problems, takes about three minutes and you can do it yourself, just a thought.

timbertom
10-26-2009, 05:31 PM
In two years never had a problem with miss firing,can't see how the trigger well cause a miss fire?? What loads are you using? sabot tight fitting?

toxic111
10-26-2009, 06:01 PM
The accutrigger really shows when you don't have proper trigger control.. I have one on my .223 and there have been many times I get a click instead of bang.. You have to make sure you pull straight back, not off to the side at all... especially when the trigger is set really light (my .223 is set at 1lb)

bigmulie
10-26-2009, 06:59 PM
My opinion is that it's just another thing to screw up! Several misfires, and missed opportunities on BIG deer because the gun wouldn't fire. Don't get me wrong, i still love the gun after just about throwing it in the burn pile 2 years ago! My trigger would sieze up. Like pulling on a concrete trigger, it wouldn't move, i tried everything and the gunsmith said they had never seen that before. Like Bigbuckcanuck said, pulled the Accutrigger out and not another problem. I love shooting my Savage muzzleloader!

Paraaronoid
10-26-2009, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the input guys...I was doing a little bit of reading and your insight is echoed in another forum:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9lp9m5jio7p1n06m29tign5et4&topic=17954.0

Never considered the possibility that we weren't pulling straight back on the trigger. Does kind of seem consistent with the variation between shooters. I've only done it a few times and it has been off the bench, whereas my friend has fired probably 6 times with it and it has happened a few times. I've wondered why it happens far more frequently with him.

Gonna look at adjusting the trigger pull as well, see if that makes a difference, as it has been said, it could be the combination of the two.

Paraaronoid
10-26-2009, 10:08 PM
In two years never had a problem with miss firing,can't see how the trigger well cause a miss fire?? What loads are you using? sabot tight fitting?

Hornady 250/300gr. SST...43 grains of SR-4759, Federal 209A primer.

To digress at little, what loads do you guys use in your Savage ML? Not very impressed so far with the above combination's ability to anchor a deer on the spot. The 3 deer that have been taken with this so far have all shot in the boiler room, yet end up doing a dead run of 30-50 yards. Have yet to anchor one. Are the Barnes bullets worth the hefty coin?

Sabots are the black ones (I think they are the high velocity or something to that effect) and fit nice and snug as they go down. No problems there.

chrisg
10-26-2009, 11:14 PM
Hornady 250/300gr. SST...43 grains of SR-4759, Federal 209A primer.

To digress at little, what loads do you guys use in your Savage ML? Not very impressed so far with the above combination's ability to anchor a deer on the spot. The 3 deer that have been taken with this so far have all shot in the boiler room, yet end up doing a dead run of 30-50 yards. Have yet to anchor one. Are the Barnes bullets worth the hefty coin?

Sabots are the black ones (I think they are the high velocity or something to that effect) and fit nice and snug as they go down. No problems there.

30 -50 yards is not bad at all.A lot depends on placement e.g spine shots are about the only that will drop in its tracks or close to the spinal coloumn,any else they will usually run some distance. I would not worry if it groups good then thats what matters.

timbertom
10-27-2009, 07:53 AM
here is even a better site...doug's message boards..if you have problems opening site send me a pm and well send the link to you

bigbuckcanuck
10-27-2009, 09:10 AM
Hornady 250/300gr. SST...43 grains of SR-4759, Federal 209A primer.

To digress at little, what loads do you guys use in your Savage ML? Not very impressed so far with the above combination's ability to anchor a deer on the spot. The 3 deer that have been taken with this so far have all shot in the boiler room, yet end up doing a dead run of 30-50 yards. Have yet to anchor one. Are the Barnes bullets worth the hefty coin?

Sabots are the black ones (I think they are the high velocity or something to that effect) and fit nice and snug as they go down. No problems there.


We have noticed simliar problems with the hornady ssts, they don't seem to mushroom very well complete pass throughs, possibly hitting at speeds faster then designed? I was going to try barnes or power belts or something else this year just did not have the time. The accuracy from the hornady seems to be incredible though.

jp2604
10-27-2009, 09:20 AM
Hornady 250/300gr. SST...43 grains of SR-4759, Federal 209A primer.

To digress at little, what loads do you guys use in your Savage ML? Not very impressed so far with the above combination's ability to anchor a deer on the spot. The 3 deer that have been taken with this so far have all shot in the boiler room, yet end up doing a dead run of 30-50 yards. Have yet to anchor one. Are the Barnes bullets worth the hefty coin?

Sabots are the black ones (I think they are the high velocity or something to that effect) and fit nice and snug as they go down. No problems there.

you must remember that a muzzleloader, unlike a high powered rifle, does not supply shocking power. Instead the bullet, when released from the sabot, simply bores a hole through the body cavity and untimitly the animal simply bleeds out.

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 09:33 AM
you must remember that a muzzleloader, unlike a high powered rifle, does not supply shocking power. Instead the bullet, when released from the sabot, simply bores a hole through the body cavity and untimitly the animal simply bleeds out.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it has no memory as to what kind of weapon it was fired from. Shocking power I believe is more about bullet design and composition than anything, hence why a mushrooming effect is so important and why full metal jacketed bullets are illegal and unethical to use on big game.

Now if you are telling me that the Hornady SST bullets don't mushroom well in comparison to other bullets, that's another thing...

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 09:36 AM
We have noticed simliar problems with the hornady ssts, they don't seem to mushroom very well complete pass throughs, possibly hitting at speeds faster then designed? I was going to try barnes or power belts or something else this year just did not have the time. The accuracy from the hornady seems to be incredible though.

Interesting. I haven't ever really compared the entrance to the exit sizes, I will have to do that...I'm thinking I would like to try the Barnes, I've heard good things about them.

FYI - I read somewhere that Savages and power belts don't mix...Can't remember where I read that, I will try to find it...

daroof
10-27-2009, 09:57 AM
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it has no memory as to what kind of weapon it was fired from. Shocking power I believe is more about bullet design and composition than anything, hence why a mushrooming effect is so important and why full metal jacketed bullets are illegal and unethical to use on big game.

Now if you are telling me that the Hornady SST bullets don't mushroom well in comparison to other bullets, that's another thing...

You are partially right! To kill (or stop animal in tracks) you need high momentum (=knock down power). If bullet is light, it has to travel faster. If bullet is heavy, it doesn't have to.

Bullets do mushroom, but the only reason for doing that is to pass more momentum to the object.

Full metal jackets are not allowed, because they would make a nice hole in and hole out and travel another mile with energy sufficient to wound something else. Just by passing through an animal, FMJ doesn't pass much of it's momentum to it. That's the reason, why army uses FMJ, so if the soldier is wounded, the chance he will be healed are much higher, and he still can't fight in a war/battle for another few weeks/months.


edit: I read again this post and I see, that I combined your post with someone elses' post, sorry :)

BeerSlayer1
10-27-2009, 10:29 AM
Shocking power I believe is more about bullet design and composition than anything

No, it's primarily about VELOCITY, then mass of your bullet to a lesser degree. Double your velocity and you'll quadruple your energy (shocking power).

Energy, momentum, shocking power; whatever you want to call it varies with the mass of your bullet and the SQUARE of your velocity. Compared to a rifle, your muzzleloader is shooting a heavier bullet (which is good) at way slower speeds (a big handicap) meaning you have way less shocking power.

Bullet design will determine how efficiently the energy is transferred to your animal. If you are having pass throughs, not all of the energy is being transferred to "shocking" the animal and damaging tissue.

daroof
10-27-2009, 10:48 AM
No, it's primarily about VELOCITY, then mass of your bullet to a lesser degree. Double your velocity and you'll quadruple your energy (shocking power).

Energy, momentum, shocking power; whatever you want to call it varies with the mass of your bullet and the SQUARE of your velocity.

Bullet design will determine how efficiently the energy is transferred to your animal. If you are having pass throughs, not all of the energy is being transferred to "shocking" the animal and damaging tissue.

:thumbs_up, I agree, to describe behaviour of a bullet you can't have just one parameter. I personally don't like the use of kinetic energy, because it's mainly marketing thing. You tell people: this bullet travels 10 meters faster than the other one, and in the kinetic energy you have square of velocity, so ...

...Energy, momentum, shocking power; whatever you want to call it varies with the mass of your bullet and the SQUARE of your velocity.
no, only energy does:

energy = kinetic energy = mv^2/2
momentum = mv

mapman
10-27-2009, 11:33 AM
Awesome topic guys!

I second timbertom's suggestion for doug's message board... I found this post that might explain a bit more with regards to the primer issue:

http://dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=11212

BeerSlayer1
10-27-2009, 11:40 AM
momentum = mv


Daroof, yikes it's been 27 years since I spent any time in a physics classroom.

You are right with that equation but I'd rather increase my chances of killing something by doubling the velocity of the bullet than by doubling it's mass any day.

daroof
10-27-2009, 12:05 PM
BeerSlayer1, I had no hidden intentions behind my post. I know, that even after a few months it's hard to remember exact formula. I know that from my experience!

BeerSlayer1, as you know I am beginning hunter and my knowledge is mainly from books and magazines, it's not field tested yet. On the Internet you can find people arguing over energy/momentum killing factors. You can find formulas proving that momentum is more important or the kinetic energy is more important.

I wrote my post based on a book and a few articles I read a while ago about stopping power of handguns. My second thoughts would be, that for long range shooting 100-500yds, you want to lower mass of a bullet, and increase it's velocity (which is what you wrote). This might reduce the amount of burned powder (but not necessary), and the trajectory of the bullet will be flatter (than for the more massive bullet).

I have read recently a paper about bullet fragmentation. The summary of that article is: the high velocity bullets fragment more than the low velocity bullets.

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 01:55 PM
No, it's primarily about VELOCITY, then mass of your bullet to a lesser degree. Double your velocity and you'll quadruple your energy (shocking power).

Energy, momentum, shocking power; whatever you want to call it varies with the mass of your bullet and the SQUARE of your velocity. Compared to a rifle, your muzzleloader is shooting a heavier bullet (which is good) at way slower speeds (a big handicap) meaning you have way less shocking power.

Bullet design will determine how efficiently the energy is transferred to your animal. If you are having pass throughs, not all of the energy is being transferred to "shocking" the animal and damaging tissue.


I agree with almost everything you are saying, just not the conclusion.

I believe energy/momentum and shocking power are TWO different entities, not one. I believe shocking power will have a velocity component to it, but it is also based more around bullet design and composition.

You nailed it right on the head though when you say "Bullet design will determine how efficiently the energy is transferred to your animal. If you are having pass throughs, not all of the energy is being transferred to "shocking" the animal and damaging tissue".

At least to me, that's the key.

If it was based primarily on velocity, it would then become humane to start firing full metal jacketed bullets at big game, as long as they were going a certain velocity. Personally, I don't believe that a 4000 fps full metal jacket will provide additional shocking power over one that is going 2000 fps.

PAPA BEAR
10-27-2009, 09:15 PM
a 338 win mag will solve all your knockdown problems.;)

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 09:56 PM
a 338 win mag will solve all your knockdown problems.;)

Yep, and it will skin, butcher, and cut all at once too :-)

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 09:57 PM
Go figure...Amazing all the information that can be learned from reading the manual:

"Pulling the trigger from the side or not directly rearward will cause the sear to disengage and be blocked by the AccuRelease. Although a 'click' may be heard, the sear is blocked, preventing the firing pin from hitting the primer. When this happens, the bolt must be raised and lowered to 're-cock' the firearm."
...
"When the sear is blocked by the AccuRelease, the firing pin is restrained within the bolt assembly, preventing it from hitting the primer. The 'click' that is heard is the actual sear being blocked by the AccuRelease, not the firing pin!"


I don't know exactly if this is what happened, but there is a sure-fire way to know in the future. If the AccuTrigger is locked afterwards, this is what happened. Guess I will have to be more aware of it in the future.

great white deer hunter
10-27-2009, 10:04 PM
in my savage i had the same problem with winchester primers i switched over to federal and never had the problem again

my special load is 245 gr barnes spit fire mz and 42.5 gr IMR 4759 sighted in two inche high at 100 yds hold dead on out two 250yds and yes i think the barnes are worth the extra $$$ I shot 250 sst before and after i shot a mule buck and found the bullet it did not open up at all a few friends have had this same problem

daroof
10-27-2009, 10:48 PM
To summarise this thread: should I buy a Savage muzzleloader or not?
I have been thinking about buying my own muzzleloader next year and have been thinking about Savage.

Paraaronoid
10-27-2009, 11:04 PM
To summarise this thread: should I buy a Savage muzzleloader or not?
I have been thinking about buying my own muzzleloader next year and have been thinking about Savage.

I don't think any Savage muzzleloader owner would disagree that they are great guns. A muzzleloader that doesn't have to be cleaned after every shot, that's worth it right there. If your deer does have to do a dead run, you can at least see it run, instead of having to part a cloud of smoke with your hands after the shot to get a glimpse.

Apparently there have been complaints about the AccuTrigger system, but that I believe is a feature of Savage itself, not specifically of their muzzleloaders. Also, as I have stated above, an actual read of the manual will make you aware of the AccuTrigger's 'features'.

As for shocking power (or lack thereof), that is not necessarily specific to a muzzleloader, and certainly not as specific as a Savage.

Because of the ability to use smokeless powder, you won't find a muzzleloader that will achieve velocities better than a Savage.

daroof
10-27-2009, 11:11 PM
I don't think any Savage muzzleloader owner would disagree that they are great guns. A muzzleloader that doesn't have to be cleaned after every shot, that's worth it right there. If your deer does have to do a dead run, you can at least see it run, instead of having to part a cloud of smoke with your hands after the shot to get a glimpse.

Apparently there have been complaints about the AccuTrigger system, but that I believe is a feature of Savage itself, not specifically of their muzzleloaders. Also, as I have stated above, an actual read of the manual will make you aware of the AccuTrigger's 'features'.

As for shocking power (or lack thereof), that is not necessarily specific to a muzzleloader, and certainly not as specific as a Savage.

Because of the ability to use smokeless powder, you won't find a muzzleloader that will achieve velocities better than a Savage.

Thanks Paraaronoid, I have read many positive opinions on Savage muzzleloader, but this thread gave me some doubts. I am not worrying about knock-down power of my muzzleloader, but about functionality and dependency. I don't want to buy a thing that I cannot rely on when I am in the field. Additionally, when you spend 600$, you want to get the best deal.

daroof
10-27-2009, 11:15 PM
a 338 win mag will solve all your knockdown problems.;)
Papa Bear, 338 win is on my list just after a muzzleloader and a compound bow. Then I will get .338Lapua and .50 BMG (if they are legal in Canada) :shade:

antler addiction
10-28-2009, 01:20 AM
Yep, and it will skin, butcher, and cut all at once too :-)


Have you ever used a 338wm? Just asking b/c I see or have heard this response many times but all to often not by a 338wm user. I always wanted a 338wm, finally broke down and bought one a few years ago...love it!! No bones about it, mine is a elk/moose rig and as such it will always be loaded with 225 - 250gr bullets. However I've witnessed the 338wm use several times on deer and even antelope, I never saw a big difference in hole size and certainly not in meat lose. Shot placement is the biggest meat loss in most cases and no matter if you hit it with a 270 or 338 you hit bone expect some damage and loss.

In terms of the savage ML and AT, I had troubles getting use to the lawyer bar (Accutrigger -AT). I experienced some off pulls or misfires myself. Still not my favorite but it hasn't caused me any issues once I got use to the design. I have used the 250gr barnes expanders and sst coupled with the MMP Black Sabots (Long) on game & haven't noticed difference in wound channels or "knockdown". In fact my other ML's when a deer was hit in the ribs/boiler room (behind the shoulders) all have death ran, so I see really no difference in this area. Only time I have achived bang flops with a smokepole is a CNS hit - spine or both shoulders. Smokeless has lots of benefits like mentioned already, plus you can achieve high velocity without shouldering the extra load.

Cheers all

COYOTE
10-28-2009, 07:49 AM
After reading these posts I understand what happened to me last year on my mule deer at 35 yards. Wearing gloves probably help cause this glitch to act up.

Paraaronoid
10-28-2009, 09:04 AM
Have you ever used a 338wm? Just asking b/c I see or have heard this response many times but all to often not by a 338wm user. I always wanted a 338wm, finally broke down and bought one a few years ago...love it!! No bones about it, mine is a elk/moose rig and as such it will always be loaded with 225 - 250gr bullets. However I've witnessed the 338wm use several times on deer and even antelope, I never saw a big difference in hole size and certainly not in meat lose. Shot placement is the biggest meat loss in most cases and no matter if you hit it with a 270 or 338 you hit bone expect some damage and loss.

No, but my Dad does...That's where I picked up that phrase...

The Provider
10-28-2009, 10:56 AM
a 338 win mag will solve all your knockdown problems.;)

X2- My cal. of choice for over 20yrs. Moose, Elk, Deer, etc. etc. Less waste on a deer than a 30-06 with 180 grain silvertips. At least in my experience.

In the market for an in-line also so this thread has been very informative. So I gather from another thread that the 50 grain powder pellets are not the things to use? The thread was an older one about Shockey's pioneer powder.

steeleyes31
03-01-2011, 05:07 PM
250 grs. Barnes Expander MZ behind 42 grs. of VihtaVuori N110. Dropped my moose at 250 yards; plus countless deer over the past few years. I really like the Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ's, but you have to upgrade to a high pressure sabot.

Also, with the Savage, make sure to completely "close" the bolt. Before the bolt is closed, the bolt locks into another position. Make sure to continue through and completely close bolt. If you don't, you'll simply get a click. My buddy had this occur last year using my Savage.

str8shtr
03-02-2011, 08:32 AM
Papa Bear, 338 win is on my list just after a muzzleloader and a compound bow. Then I will get .338Lapua and .50 BMG (if they are legal in Canada) :shade:

have you thought about the 338 Rem Ultra Mag? cheaper to shoot than a Lapua and pretty much the same thing,,, according to the manual. personally my favorite cal is the 338 and as mentioned before it doesnŽt destroy any more meat than anything else, your bullet design is what makes the difference. i quit using hornady 30 years ago because you never new what to expect and when i was loading 30-06 , 165 gr ??maybe, whatever, i weighed a handful of bullets and found up to 7 grs difference, thats not satisfactory. iŽve weighed balistic tips and in the box of 338 and 284 i found up to .04 grs difference, very satisfactory, but they are not a high vel bullet. whenever i can i will retreive the bullet, look at it, clean it and weigh it. i have been shooting barnes for years and i have no reason to change. the worst bullet iŽve retreived from barnes was still 99%original weight. ok, getting closer to the original question. my rem ML would misfire when it was very cold but always worked on the second try. not satisfactory... i ended up tearing apart the bolt which is not easy unless you have the proper tool. i cleaned the fouling out of it and shoots just like a clean gun. now, satisfactory. so i was thinking that might have been part of your problem or maybe just the accutrigger. if you ever get a pinholed animal it is because of very , very slow velocity or faulty bullet... without getting into equations, iŽll make it simple. the faster your bullet travels, the faster it expands,,, if its working properly. so buy some barnes if you havenŽt already and try them. dig out the slug and look at it and weigh it, also look at the penetration ya got. i used to think about them being expensive to shoot, then got to thinking, the guns i buy, the truck, knives, gadgets, tags and on accasion a little rum (that doesnŽt count as i would have bought it anyway), so an extra .35 cents for a premium bullet is not all that expensive and if you are reloading its still cheaper than store bought. have fun, shoot lots, getting to the shooting part is expensive.

masonsdad
03-02-2011, 09:59 AM
i have my m.l. missfire like once when it was thirty below, i think that it was because i used too much oil on the bolt when i cleaned it and the oil was probably thick and sticky cause it when off when i ****ed it the second time. never had the problem since in cold temps.